The end of an exceptionalism worth having

[Jon Newman]

I feel compelled to post this today. I'm sure there are many different sources and points of view--feel free to post them. I'm starting with this one from Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2150396/). To my mind this move is not an example of American exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) but rather the end of it.

Someone get me a bucket.

[Karie]

Jon,

I believe in the American people and it is there where the "true" spirit lies. We won't be standing for it and neither will other countries. Some of us may be asleep, but the wake up call has been sent out. People will change the world for the better, not government.

Karie

[Jon Newman]

Hi Karie,

I'd like to think you're right and you may be. On the other hand James Madison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison), "Father of the constitution" and all around smart guy, states the following in Federalist paper number 51 (http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm)

Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.

All around smart guy indeed but could he foresee this?

[Karie]

Jon,

Yes he was a smart guy.

We have alot of smart people today too and they just aren't always in the papers, but leading from a different direction. Obviously, government is not presently holding the paradigm of true freedom, but it is still here, not just in America, but all over the world. I see and hear it all the time how all of us have a misconception about who we are from the media and our respective governments. When we meet, person to person, understandings begin and healing starts. I have seen so many changes in my lifetime...who would have ever thought the Berlin wall would come tumbling down when we were hovering under our desks practicing for atomic warfare when younger or being allies with Russia. I will always believe in change for the better; when looked for you will find it and that is where I concentrate my energies of thought and heart. There is always hope Jon! Know that I care and you do, and that is already 2....and I know that this number is exponential, there are many more of us, all over the globe.

Karie :angel:

[Barrett Dorko]

In Elaine Scarry’s The Body in Pain (http://www.amazon.com/Body-Pain-Making-Unmaking-World/dp/0195049969/sr=1-1/qid=1159725926/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7213658-3536738?ie=UTF8&s=books) she makes many things clear, but none more clear than this on page 19, “Physical pain – to invoke what is at this moment its single most familiar attribute – is language destroying. Torture inflicts bodily pain that is itself language-destroying. (Thus) the interrogator’s goal is not to elicit needed information but to visibly destroy the prisoner’s voice.”

Makes you wonder about the true purpose of torture used to ostensibly obtain information. I’d recommend Scarry’s book, but be prepared to read about some terrible things.

Those here who know me understand my feeling about what has happened and my personal stake in it. Even if I didn’t have that, I’d feel the same. Over on Rehab Edge not long before my writing was eliminated there was a discussion regarding torture. It became obvious that a couple there advocated its use. Both, perhaps not coincidentally, were my harshest critics, no matter what it was I had recently said.

How these people can call themselves therapists is beyond me. Beyond that, I don’t know how they can look at themselves in the mirror.

[Jon Newman]

This video (http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7973) may have been the slowest video I've ever downloaded but it's interesting. While more than a year old, it portends where we are today; next to a puke bucket. You'll learn that the problem isn't whether humans have unalienable rights but whether it's legal to violate them or as Kenneth Roth sardonically states, "The enemy is not just al-Qaeda, the enemy is the law".

At the end of this post there is a pdf of some notes including ideas from Scarry and the reminder that "Just as prisoners are faced with death, so is the torturer".

And a link in which the author asks us to consider the arguments for torture carefully (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/printarticle.php?id=7440)

[BB]

Jon,
I don't even know what to say. I'm going to the closet to look for a bucket as well.

[Diane]

In Canada nearly everyone has a (well-used) bucket. You can borrow mine if necessary.

On the topic of torture, we have this current situation (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/). (Read the timeline from the bottom up.)

[nari]

I think our PM has banned buckets here in Oz...

The catchword (his): Be alert, not alarmed. (re terrorists)

Makes one feel like a beagle in an airport immigration queue.

By the way, enforced sleep deprivation has been described as 'acceptable for interrogation, and it is not torture', according to our newspaper today...:confused:

Nari

[bernard]

Barrett,

It may be this torture (http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1271) thread? (only registered users are able to read it)

[Jon Newman]

Hi Nari,

I suppose it isn't ironic that those trying advocate torture as public policy use the tactics of the people they employ to do the torture. Specifically, denying what they're doing or what the people are enduring. If I slap you in the face and call it a kiss, it's ok. And if I do it a lot, it's because I love you. Actually our public policy is about love and kisses rather than what you think it is (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/09/25/usdom14255.htm)

It seems that the forward thinking know they need a get out of jail free card (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/11/usdom13971.htm) for the future and are willing to sacrifice our humanity for it.

Perhaps they read Hugh Macleod's stuff (http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/002773.html) too.

[Jon Newman]

The latest from TIME (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1541282-1,00.html)

[Diane]

Sorry, to use my bucket you'll have to get in line just now..

[nari]

Yuk...scary. Buckets may be in short supply.

Jon, I love the cumulonimbus mammata clouds in your avatar. Sort of distracts from buckets.

nari

[Jon Newman]

I guess we're all part of a bucket brigade, something that must be employed when the ship is sinking.

One of the most often cited scenarios of those who'd like to see torture become part of our public policy is the "ticking time bomb" scenario. This paper ( http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2979 ) paper examines that scenario.

[Randy Dixon]

I remember the discussion Barrett refers to, it is one of those that stuck with me, because I had a hard time accepting the fact that educated, regular people will still argue for the use of torture, that the same arguments used and rejected in history, that led to actions like the Geneva convention, are still being put forth. I remember it not only because of the subject matter, but the, well, childish arguments presented and the fact that those presenting them would think that those opposing them hadn't even considered the points brought up, such as, "what if you really want to know the information, like if somebody's life is at stake?". I remember it because it was the thread that had me closest to despairing that many therapists, including those who seem pretty bright, really aren't capable of critical thinking, and one post in particular stands out in my mind, when the arguments presented for torture were dismissed on rational grounds then the attempt was made to make them on emotional ones, "What if it was you SON over there?", which given Barrett's position, made me wonder how he restrained himself.

I'm embarassed this country even feels the need to discuss this, I'm sickened by the the fact that so many feel that it is justified, if only we are scared enough, if only "they" are bad enough.

[Jon Newman]

Thanks for grabbing a bucket Randy. People interested in this thread might also enjoy watching/participating in Bill Moyer's "Citizen Class" (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/moyersonamerica/citizensclass.html). Check it out.

[Jon Newman]

One more take on the The myth of the ticking time bomb (http://progressive.org/mag_mccoy1006)

[BB]

Something this situation reminds me of. Do you ever notice how a PT, or anyone for that matter, who is making un-ethical actions is always able to justify it to themselves. I think that these people start off by making a small gray area decision, and continue to build upon that, until one day they are taking away the right of habeas corpus, and are still able to find a way to justify it to themselves.

[Jon Newman]

Hi Cory,

I agree to an extent. That would bring us back to post number three in this thread--specifically the "checks and balances" idea. Although I have to say that there are people, and I actually think it is quite common, who never seem to get that low even without the checks.

[Jon Newman]

Latest news (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061006/ap_on_re_us/guantanamo_alleged_abuse)

[Karie]

Jon,

I believe for every article that is printed and told about abuses such as these, there are far more heroic and humanitarian stories that never make it to the press or people's ears because "negativity" is more newsworthy and elicits far more emotion. I will always believe in the "heart" of humanity, otherwise there would be no reason to live and strive for better. Use your bucket and then when you feel better, live what you believe and pass the light of your candle onward...that's how the darkness gets extinguished...no preaching, just what I feel in my soul and what resonates for me as truth.

Respectfully,
Karie

[Jon Newman]

I'm counting on that fact to help things turn around Karie. But one first has to become aware that there is a problem to begin with. I sense that it is beginning to happen.

[Karie]

Jon,

Agreed Jon, it's because of the awareness that I believe it will change...and it will be us everyday working folks that make the changes because we know and understand the truth of humanity. Change is never initiated at the top. I tend to think of the top as representative of what was, the ground floor is the true place of progress and change. I guess that is why I have never strived to be a top floor person, I like being in the trenches. There's alot of nice people down here...LOL....that's not to say that people with integrity don't come through at the top sometimes, but for the most part, it's a tough place to maintain one's integrity when there is so much deal making going on. Keep the faith so to speak, Jon...I plan on keeping the lamp lit too!

Karie

[Jon Newman]

I'm not sure if this will work but this is how Bill Moyers puts it

Lincoln Weeps (http://www-tc.pbs.org/moyers/moyersonamerica/rss/media/lincolnweeps.mp3?mii=1)

[Karie]

Sorry Jon, I tried the link and it just says that the track in unavailable...maybe it's my computer.

Karie:confused:

[Karie]

By the way Jon, how are the colors by you, I see you are a little more North than I am. Enjoy the weekend!

Karie:teeth:

[Jon Newman]

I don't think it's your computer. There were some "redirecting" comments when I clicked my way to the podcast. Check out the previous link mentioning Moyers (post 17) and use the search box to look for "Lincoln weeps". Basically, he's saying what you are. Also, if you google it you'll find the text of the essay.

[Karie]

I read the essay....yep that is what it will take, grassroots, and it is happening. It seems every gas station I go to lately or convenience store has a petition in it for one reason or another and there are many signatures. I don't remember that a few years ago.

Karie:thumbs_up

[Jon Newman]

An interesting editorial.

[Diane]

I think this blog entry (http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/) has some relevance here. It's about an argument between a pair of intellectuals over who's right and who's wrong about concepts and metaphors/memes, parallel to but much heavier than our own discussions on these matters.. oh yeah, it has to do with a strange category no one has ever been able to define designated "American values."

[nari]

Interesting blog, and indeed, the mystery of American values pops up. I guess every country spouts its version of what every citizen is supposed to value, but it is very abstract. I have no idea anymore what Oz values are; yet they are quoted ad nauseum. Perhaps someone (other than a MLK clone) will be able to define them; but it won't be a politician or head of country, perhaps..

Nari

[Jon Newman]

Regardless of what individual countries do value, I would hope that they, at least, would not advocate for state sponsored dehumanization (http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/dehumanization/)

[nari]

True, Jon.
History tells us that dehumanisation has occurred throughout recorded history despite the presence of religious beliefs and other factors; and that we do not learn from history. However history has the problem of often being inaccurately recorded (confabulation?). I think we are basically kind towards each other, but the stresses of overpopulation are an extra problem for us in the coming generations, with all sorts of overtones.

Nari

[Diane]

Nari, Jon,
Aussie value: "Don't be a tall poppy."
American value: "If you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes."
Canadian value: "Bland is safe."

[nari]

Diane,

We are less scared of tall poppies than we used to be, but keep on inventing fantastic technology that has to go overseas because nobody's interested here.....

Aussie values: Just keep building new houses and all will be OK in the world.
USA values: Uncle Sam will show the way
Canada: Any chance of a continental rift developing south of Vancouver?
Britain: What happened to the Empire?

Nari

[Jon Newman]

For more on dehumanization read this (http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3024) (you must be logged in).

[Jon Newman]

Latest news (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1009-01.htm)

Don't expect a pat on the back for doing your job well.

[Jon Newman]

As seen on TV:

An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Thomas Paine Paris: July, 1795.

[Jon Newman]

The latest news (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-gitmo15oct15,1,3884201.story?coll=la-news-a_section).

[Jon Newman]

Sigh (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/17/washington/18detaincnd.html?ex=1318737600&en=47998e9d8fc6c35d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

Here's a link to answer some questions you may have

Q and A: Military Commissions Act of 2006 (http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/qna1006/)

[Jon Newman]

It's tough to be a role model (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/23/AR2006102301133.html?nav=rss_print/asection) especially if you're being used as an excuse. Apparently people can only be as good as the US. Give me a break.

[Jon Newman]

There are role models and then there are role models (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1933315,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1).

[Jon Newman]

Some thoughts on the topic by Elaine Scarry (http://bostonreview.net/BR31.6/scarry.html)

(I found this link at the always excellent www.butterfliesandwheels.com)

[Jon Newman]

Here's a review of the book (http://www.democratiya.com/review.asp?reviews_id=51) The Torture Debate by Karen Greenberg. The review is by Stephen de Wijze (http://www.socialsciences.manchester.ac.uk/politics/about/staff_profiles/stephen_dewijze.htm).

[Jason Silvernail]

Pardon me, but I think I need another bucket over here... make that two.

The folks at my favorite magazine Reason (http://www.reason.com/) have always had nothing but contempt for this latest angle of American society, and they always do it with intelligence.

It's good to know that there are a great many more people bothered by this stuff than it sometimes seems...

Also, it's great to know we're in good company (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/116186.html).

[Bas]

Jason - an absolutely enlightening conversation on that thread. Reason for hope...Thanks for that link.

[Jon Newman]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for joining the bucket brigade. With some hard we'll stay afloat.

[Jon Newman]

I haven't posted here for quite some time but I thought about it when I read this blog entry from Effect Measure (http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2007/08/american_psychological_associa.php)

[Jon Newman]

I've been a bit of a heavy on this subject. Maybe I just need to lighten up. Any Harry Shearer fans out there?

Waterboardin' USA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKyFTnH2teo)

[Bas]

Jon, well-done black humour. It is rather disgusting that the outrage against torture is not materializing - despite attempts as this. A complacency? Or fear of many media to take a more nuanced view of the "us against them" syndrome?

And I can't help but think: what happens with the people who inflict torture on others? What happens with their lives, children, spouses, friends? What happens to their minds? And souls....
I just have to remember the ONE time I was close to hitting my child in anger (a bleak day in my existence in many ways) - the sick, nauseated feeling that shocked me to the core, and stopped me ; this was just a "small" thing compared to torture.....

[Randy Dixon]

Well, the election year is coming up. For the Americans, you might want to check out
http://www.ronpaul2008.com.
He and Kucinich seem to be about the only ones serious about getting out of Iraq and restoring civil liberties.
For the non-Americans, maybe you should hope that we check out these candidates.

[Jon Newman]

Sorry for your luck Randy but I am all for a change.

Whitehouse pushes waterboarding rationale (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23140359/)

[Jon Newman]

News flash: Bush is pro-torture (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/washington/08cnd-policy.html?em&ex=1205125200&en=a82d4a826021d30d&ei=5087%0A) (hat tip www.butterfliesandwheels.com)

[Jon Newman]

Former US Army Colonel Andrew J. Bacevich spoke with Bill Moyers tonight on Bill Moyer's Journal. Watch it here (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08152008/watch.html).

He also happens to have a new book out titled, The Limits of Power: the end of American exceptionalism (http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Power-End-American-Exceptionalism/dp/0805088156/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218851726&sr=8-1)

I've put it on my list.