is this for real?

[stregapez]

(I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post this here; just tell me if not)

This email i just opened kind of made me... queazy. Any immunologist types here? I know just about nothing about lymphatic drainage massage, but i'm guesssing it's mechanical effects on the immune system are probably very speculative. Am I wrong?

The ethics of using bird flu here as an advertizing device seems a little sketchy

:

Dear Massage Therapist,

As many of you know, our world is facing a common threat; the Avian Influenza Virus. While scientists are working on prophylactic vaccinations, we as Massage Therapists can also do something to help. Please read on for more information about this, and about a very special offer just for those of you selected. (Please visit us at http://www.MassageVideoNetwork.com/drainage.html for more information).

The average human body accumulates large amounts of metabolic toxic waste products. This leads to a significant reduction in the ability of the acquired immune system to protect the body from viruses and other harmful germs. Many people, even after receiving an immunization still get the flu (viral infection). So, it is our job to try and help to maximize our clients' immune systems. By providing the general public with lymph drainage, we can help make them less susceptible to disease.

On DVD Volume 5, you will receive a detailed explanation and step-by-step demonstration of manual acceleration of Lymph Drainage techniques. Today, with the threat of various viral pandemics associated with the bird flu, it is very important that every massage therapist learn these techniques and offer them to the general public. (Please visit us at http://www.massagevideonetwork.com/index.html for more information).

We have some great news! As many of you know, it has been a very long time since we have been able to offer you volumes 1-5, by world renowned Boris Prilutsky, for a sale price (they have been at $49.95 for quite some time now). We are well aware that many of you have purchased volumes 6-11, and have waited for a price break for volumes 1-5. After thousands of requests, we have been able to buy some time between price contracts to bring you a very special offer, only available with the link on this e-mail, for a very limited time:


You can purchase any 1 DVD Volume
(from 1-5) for $29.95 (+ $5 S&H)
Or
Purchase DVD Volumes 1 through 4 for $29.95 each, and get Lymph Drainage Volume
5 FREE (+$10 S&H)

This offer will only apply when
you click on this link http://www.massagevideonetwork.com/specialoffer.html

Because this is an exclusive offer, we ask that you do not share this link with
anybody else. Also, only one package per e-mail please.

Offer expires May 19th,11:59 PM PST.

Please feel free to contact us with any questions, or just
to say hello.

Best wishes to you all,

Massage Video Network

www.MassageVideoNetwork.com

[bernard]

The originators of Manual Lymphatic Drainage are VODDER and his "son" Albert LEDUC.
http://www.vodderschool.com/estheticians/mld.cfm

It is a very effective treatment and, of course, lymphatic system is the waste system of our body.

The one you provided seems more "commercial".
You can improve the circulatory rate within this system with MLD and its effects are remaining in time.

Some women who have huge leg problems urge to toilets after a session and some others are "upset" for hours. It shows the efficiency of the MLD.
(I'm a certified MLD practitioner).

[nari]

I'm not surprised you felt uneasy about this.

Clearing the lymphatics is a specific technique done for lymphoedema by PTs - it is a pathological condition, often occuring after removal of nodes surgically.
I don't see how moving lymph along in a normal system removes toxins; it may simply ensure a more even flow. Someone with a more immunological background than I, might help you more.

In the meantime, I would be a trifle suspicious about bandwagons. :confused:

Nari

Ah, Bernard beat me to it.

[bernard]

Support Care Cancer. (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:AL_get%28this,%20%27jour%27,%20%27Support%20Care%20Cancer.%27%29;) 2004 Jun;12(6):421-31. Epub 2004 Apr 17. Related Articles, (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=15095073) Links (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:PopUpMenu2_Set%28Menu15095073%29;) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/egifs/http:--production.springer.de-OnlineResources-Logos-springerlink.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3055&uid=15095073&db=pubmed&url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00520-004-0627-0)
The treatment of lymphedema related to breast cancer: a systematic review and evidence summary.

Kligman L (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Kligman+L%22%5BAuthor%5D), Wong RK (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Wong+RK%22%5BAuthor%5D), Johnston M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Johnston+M%22%5BAuthor%5D), Laetsch NS (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Laetsch+NS%22%5BAuthor%5D).

Pain and Symptom Management Team, Supportive Care Program, London Regional Cancer Centre, 790 Commissioners Rd East, N6A 4L6, London, Ontario, Canada.

GOALS OF WORK: To provide an evidence summary report on the question: What are the treatment options for women with lymphedema following treatment for breast cancer? METHODS: Cancer Care Ontario's Supportive Care Guidelines Group (SCGG) employed systematic review methodology to produce an evidence summary on this topic. Evidence-based opinions were formulated to guide clinical decision making, and a formal external review process was conducted to validate the relevance of these opinions for Ontario practitioners. RESULTS: The systematic review search strategy identified ten randomized controlled trials which form the basis of this evidence summary report. Four key opinions offered by the SCGG are outlined below. Responses from the practitioner feedback process supported the validity of these opinions in Ontario. (1) There is some evidence to suggest that compression therapy and manual lymphatic drainage may improve established lymphedema, but further studies are needed. Compression garments should be worn from morning to night and be removed at bedtime. Patients should be advised that lymphedema is a lifelong condition and that compression garments must be worn on a daily basis. Patients can expect stabilization and/or modest improvement of edema with the use of the garment in the prescribed fashion. (2) There is no current evidence to support the use of medical therapies, including diuretics. (3) Additional efforts to define relevant clinical outcomes for the assessment of patients with lymphedema would be valuable. (4) These opinions are appropriate for patients with more than mild lymphedema, where the signs and symptoms are considered significant from the patients' perspective.

Publication Types:
Review (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:AL_get%28this,%20%27ptyp%27,%20%27Review%27%29;)PMID: 15095073 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[nari]

As an addit, this form of compression bandaging (called Complex Physiotherapy) has been around and in use since the 80s. Results are good, and the patient's appearance, movement and ROM improve. It does depend on the patient doing specific exercises to complement what the physio does with the massage (clear the nodes first, then massage distal to proximal, etc) and the bandaging.

However, the technique does not really address your issue, Dana, in relation to the letter about removing toxins to maximise lymphatic function in the case of bird flu. Perhaps Bernard can enlarge on that?

Nari

[bernard]

http://intl.genesdev.org/cgi/content/full/16/7/773


Rays. (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Rays.');) 2000 Oct-Dec;25(4):419-27. Related Articles, (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=11367911) Links (javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu11367911);)
Lymphatic system: morphofunctional considerations.

Sallustio G (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Sallustio+G%22%5BAuthor%5D), Giangregorio C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Giangregorio+C%22%5BAuthor%5D), Cannas L (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Cannas+L%22%5BAuthor%5D), Vricella D (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Vricella+D%22%5BAuthor%5D), Celi G (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Celi+G%22%5BAuthor%5D), Rinaldi P (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Rinaldi+P%22%5BAuthor%5D).

Istituto di Radiologia, Universita Cattolica del S. Cuore, Policlinico A. Gemelli, Roma. iclrx@rm.unicatt.it

The lymphatic system, consisting of the lymph nodes and the lymphatic vessels as well as the spleen and various sites of lymphoid tissue, is deputed to important tasks: the immune response, the transport of lipids absorbed at the intestinal level and the reabsorption of water and other substances from the interstitial spaces; the lymph nodes in particular are involved in immunity and lymph filtration-depuration. Therefore, the knowledge of lymph node cellular architecture as well as of the structure and course of lymphatic vessels is of great importance. The pathologic processes that affect the lymphatic system can involve the canalicular and/or nodal part, resulting in patterns directly correlated with their respective function: lymphedema and lymphagitis on one hand, and disorders induced by accumulation, inflammation and tumors, on the other.

Publication Types:
Review (javascript:AL_get(this, 'ptyp', 'Review');)
PMID: 11367911 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Diane]

Dana, I'm sure you put your post in exactly the right place! :)
The Rubbish Cube The best place to criticize what is going wrong in health systems and other subjects. No restriction, you do not need to register to post!
Sounds like a big sales pitch based on scare tactics.. bird flu!:sad: :thumbs_do

There's no doubt that lymph drainage has been around forever whether in the sort of form Nari has suggested or Bernard. The "idea" one can push lymph around in the body is attractive, since a lot of it is right under the skin. I saw a video once of a certain Bruno Chickley, one of Upledger's many satellites, injecting green dye into the big toes of, then doing lymph drainage on, a cadaver, to show it is a mechanical process. (Could have been faked I suppose..):rolleyes:
In a live person, it's hard to rule out nervous system, and the additional effects of neuromodulation on the skin.
The actual work itself is very repetitive and for me, too boring...:mg: (yawn)

[bernard]

then doing lymph drainage on, a cadaver, to show it is a mechanical process. (Could have been faked I suppose..)

I saw the radiologic movie and it was tested on some living persons, either. It works. The lymphatic system is essential since it carries all the body waste. the venous system is totally unable to keep large molecules.

[stregapez]

Bernard, I'm familiar with the use if lymphatic massage for lymphadema, and I had a CMT, a former massage teacher, tell us he had great sucess treating a post-masectomy patient with it. I wasn't even questioning the use of LDM for lymphatic edema so much (is that what you'd call it?) I am, as Nari said, questioning it's usefulness for improvement of immune function.

If anyone can show me more proof that's the case i will consider it (studies etc). At least 'til then i'll assume that the neurological benefits of a relaxation massage (or anything else that makes one feel good) probably would have a bigger positive effect on the immune system. There actually have have been studies done on non-lymph specific massage showing a positive corelation between regular massge and improved immune function (favorable, in one study, over progressive relaxaion techniques) http://www.massagetherapyfoundation.org/or_article_massagemag107B.html.
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~compmed/research/mas00.html

Some massage people claim a regular Swedish massage has a big effect on lymph flow, but I've been told by two oncologists (both of whom do believe in massage for improved mood in cancer patients and maybe for improved immune response) that moderate walking around has the same effect on lymph flow as a Swedish massage.

Scare tactics with photos of sick chickens are probably not too good for the immune system in any case, to say the least :angry:

Dana

[bernard]

Perhaps this one is more complete?

[nari]

Dana,

I'd tend to agree with the oncologists' views re improving the flow of any body fluid, but at the same time, a massage would have added benefits.

PTs used to spend an enormous amount of time and effort mobilising secretions in respiratory conditions with complex interventions. Then it was found that getting the patient to walk about was just as effective. Whew..that meant canning a lot of 'procedures'; and for stimulating lymph flow in a person who has not got a specific condition such as lymphoedema from surgical procedures, I don't see why mobilisation on the person's two feet would not be the same. The flow-on effects from massage would complement the process.

However, I do think this organisation's letter is looking for something else..

Nari

[Bas]

"The average human body accumulates large amounts of metabolic toxic waste products. This leads to a significant reduction in the ability of the acquired immune system to protect the body from viruses and other harmful germs. "

...love the use of "toxic" here. I can imagine that word after I have submitted to a physical function usually not discussed in public ... but here it raises a red flag. In this context, you are asked to understand that without help, the body keeps deteriorating. The juxtaposition of "accumulates", "toxic" and "immune system" is a smooth marketing trick - suggesting that a) toxins accumulate, and b) the immune system therefore falls apart. Not exactly sound physiology.....

[stregapez]

So, am I understanding correctly that you disagree "The average human body accumulates large amounts of metabolic toxic waste products." ? This belief, or theory, or whatever it is, has not seemed right to me for years. It does seem to be a not uncommon myth and sometimes an obsession with many "holistic health" people.

Here, when they say
"This leads to a significant reduction in the ability of the acquired immune system to protect the body from viruses and other harmful germs. " i assume
they are speaking of accumulated waste in lymph nodes, keeping the lymph from flowing. But does waste really *accumulate* in the lymph nodes of the average person, much more than fecal matter accumulates on the walls of the large intestine (apparently a not common holisitic health myth)?

Yes, many "holistic" folks love the word "toxic" and "toxins" Ironically, if I fail to keep a sense of humor and proportion when having those conversations i sometimes feel the toxic effects of a parasympathetic response to the impossible conversation (from my limited understanding of what i guess you could call neuroendocrine psychology )


Dana

[stregapez]

http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2002/12/08.html

[nari]

Dana

I think that answers our query; thanks for posting a thoughtful article.

Probably won't change the popular notion of "healthy" colonic irrigations for those obsessed with toxins....

Nari