Can we play with painful states?

[nari]

Sounds a fantastic idea, Bernard, but what a task!!!

I would add as (f) - neural status (10) assuming that full testing to maximal range produces normal tension in almost all people.

Will have to think a lot more before I attempt to try the next step!


Nari

[bernard]

So we have now for a normal state;

1/ normal
a)blood supply=10
b)muscular tone=10
c)pain=0
d)sensitivity=10
e)skin thickness/tension =10
f) neural status=10

These values are those of homeostasis?

Anybody else about this normal state?

[emad]

Hi Bernard:

1/ normal
a)blood supply=10
b)muscular tone=10
c)pain=0
d)sensitivity=10
e)skin thickness/tension =10
f) neural status=10
h)venous return=10
g)psychological state=10
i)awarness=-10
j)functional=10
k)emotional=10
l)social=10
m)understanding=0

cheers
emad

[bernard]

Hi Emad,

Very Good reply and it will enhance the project of animation I had for!
blood supply could be cut in venous and arterial?

[emad]

Bernard

have you noticed that i give awarness minus -

cheers
emad

[bernard]

Emad,

I will agree if you explain why?
But in my view the awareness term at a level of 0 is already negative to the average state =10?

What do you mean by the understanding term?

[emad]

Hi Bernard:

awarness

I think all people nearly are dealing ,work ,act and think while they are on subconsciuos level,so it more than 0, it is below .

Cognitions

this is what i mean by understanding , because uin norml state , already there is no problem/complain/suffering so there are no knowledge/cognitions/tthoughts regarding what is not exist.

cheers
emad

[bernard]

Hello Emad,

Ah OK, but in my view, I wanted in a first time reduce the difficulty and complexity. I was thinking a sort of physical values. You introduce some abstractions terms that are not directly linked to a physical input/output. But it is not really a problem. Animation will be made with all values.

But about awareness, please leave it to zero; it will be more visible in the movie. If we put an amplitude of 30 => -10 to 20 the movie will be less comprehensible.

[emad]

hi Bernard ;

Ok as you see ,

i thought you are collecting all inputs .
as you said you are concerning only now ,physical.

So

Spiritual
energy

do not consern :wink: :wink: :wink:

cheers
emad

[emad]

Hi Bernard:

this is great to be simple .
cheers
emad

[bernard]

Hello Somasimplers,

Here is a first trial => Normal to Acute

Html; http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/normal_to_acute_test.html
Flash; http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/normal_to_acute.swf

Look attentively to the movie, what are the primary conclusions?

[bernard]

Another question rises before going to the next step.

Is it possible to (initially) have a chronic state without having had an acute one before?

[emad]

Hi Bernard:

To be in chronic stage without experience acute stage .

Really , now i have no comment .

cheers
emad

[Diane]

Hi there,
Just back from Bowen, more about that later.
Bernard, Is it possible to (initially) have a chronic state without having had an acute one before?
I'd say absolutely! It's called wear and tear and aging, which Servaas would say is brought on by sensorymotor amnesia.
More later, still hosting a workshop participant, short on time..
Cheers,
Diane

[emad]

Hi Diane :

please could you tell us more about this , being in chronic stage directly without experiencing the acute stage .

cheers

emad

[nari]

I would heartily agree with Diane and Bernard - you do not need an acute phase of pain to move into chronic pain. I have realised over the last year or so that I have had patients with no acute history, full ROM, and insidious pain that worsens over time.
It is labelled frozen shoulder, arthritis, PFS, facet joint disease, SIJ pain, torn RCs....the list goes on. With most of these conditions there appears to be no aetiology or cause and effect.
With a blatant initial event and instant acute pain - that's different.

Emad, there is identifiable injury where the pain just continues for years - or vanishes in a few weeks.
And there is not....and that is the fascinating part of chronic pain.


Nari

[Green Hornet]

I also think that chronic under-surfaced condition (seonsory motor amnesi) can turn into an "acute" experience (symptom/pain) once it reaches treshold.

[emad]

Hi Nari , Bernard & Takao ;

nice to meet and see you again Takao :D


chronic stage existed without acute stage expeience , thus of course on what is the defination of both , do u mean chronic stage thus case which contuine beyound 3 months , also what i know chronic stage has less pain than acute stage ,is thus has meaning to what we are discussing ?


cheersemad

[bernard]

Now we have
2/ acute pain (after an injury, around 1 hour?)

a)artery supply=15
b)venous return=15
c)muscular tone=9

d)sensitivity=18
e)skin thickness/tension =15
f) neural status=18

g)pain=15

And what are the values eligibles for a "normal" chronic pain?

3/ chronic pain

a)artery supply=8
b)venous return=8
c)muscular tone=12

d)sensitivity=8
e)skin thickness/tension =15
f) neural status=8

g)pain=8

[bernard]

Hello Somasimplers,

Here is a second trial => Normal to chronic

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/normal_to_chronic.swf

HTML version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/normal_to_chronic_test.html)
FLASH version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/normal_to_chronic.swf)

The third one will be more interactive!

[nari]

emad

I would disagree that chronic pain is less painful - it is, in my experience, much more painful, particularly due to the emotional aspect of living with ongoing pain, loss of lifestyle and great fear of what the future holds for them.

Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

This topic is made to find a visual consensus about pain levels!
Here I put chronic pain < acute one?

May I change it?

[Diane]

Bernard,
Nice model...I can read all the vertical stripes except the orange and the green one.. what do they represent?
Diane

[bernard]

Diane,

Click on the link flash version to see an enlarged picture.
orange = sensitivity
green = neural status

[bernard]

Hello Somasimplers,

Here is a transition trial => Muscle tone equation

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/muscle_tone.swf

HTML version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/muscle_tone_test.html)
FLASH version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/muscle_tone.swf)

The last one will be more interactive!

[bernard]

Hello Somasimplers,

Here is a last trial => painful states

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/painful_states.swf

HTML version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/painful_states_test.html)
FLASH version (http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/painful_states.swf)

The third one is more interactive?
Gives it more information about pain processes?

[bernard]

Somasimplers,

I made some rude changes in muscles tone. :oops:

I made some mistakes;
1/ the sigmoids curves were inverted!
2/ extreme values are unreachable in my view? a muscle cannot be totally flacid or stoned?


My conclusions about pain states is that a muscle/group can easily be responsible of all consequences?

muscle is the motor of pain!!!!

And because it is the starter, it can end it?

[Diane]

Hi Bernard,
"muscle is the motor of pain!!!!"

Can you elaborate?
Diane

[Servaas]

Mon Ami,

If Muscle is the motor of pain,

what is awareness ?

Isn't awareness the motor to the muscle ?

(--> that is kinda funny, are you getting it ? The motor of the
muscle, which is a motor component...hahahaha)

So doesn't that make awareness the motor of pain ?

Now, here is the real question: can you drive ?

Servaas Mes
www.somatichealthcenter.com

[bernard]

Diane,

1/ Muscle controls veins and artery flows.
2/ Muscle tone controls neural tension.
3/ Neural tension is involved in pain states
4/ Veins and artery flows are involved in pain states.

The pain loop has a motor => muscle.
The motor is muscle and it is of course directed by brain.

It is the simplest solution that Nature found to walk around homeostasis?

[nari]

Bernard

Why do you say that muscle tone controls neural tension???

If I walk for 2 hours at average speed, my muscles are increased in tone in the lower limbs for quite a while. I do not develop measurable neural tension.

Someone who is hypertonic for days may have altered arterial and venous flow due to immobility, but not necessarily neural tension.

In workshops I have seen 'normal tone' physios with significant neural tension but no contracted muscles, EXCEPT as a result of pain from increased neural tension!

Can you explain?

Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

I think that you reply yourself to the question.

1/ Normal conditions are not painful states but could become ones in long lasting durations.
2/ in some conditions, it needs an igniter to create pain and then the motor is running?
3/ many pains have a starter that is not necessary muscles but which are maintened by these ones!

[Diane]

Bernard,
I can't agree with you, sorry.. muscles have been blamed for every kind of pain forever, and it's just not true. If you go further 'upstream' in this reasoning, it becomes clear (to me anyway) that muscles are just out there doing what they are 'told' to do by the nervous system.

If there's some tight muscle clamping down on a sensitive structure that is consequently hurting, the muscle is just part of some loop of facilitation/inhibition that is coming from different parts of the brain that can't 'hear' each other properly.
Cheers,
Diane

[bernard]

Of Course, a muscle, alone, has no intelligence but it is a motor used by brain to change our world.

Muscle is brain because brain commands it.

Diane,

Bien sur, the real motor remains CNS.

(I'm a bit fuzzy ??? :? :? :? )

[bernard]

Sorry Servaas,

I missed your post!

In my view since the brain uses muscles to maintain/create emotions and pain, brain could easily, in my opinion uses the same means to change these emotions?

[Diane]

Bernard, I was going to quibble with you a little and argue that muscles aren't brain, because they come from different tissue (mesoderm) than brain does (ectoderm)...but in the end, really, the whole body is "brain"..even bone marrow.. glia find their way from bone marrow to brain (see Candace Pert).. so I'm back to the idea that the body is just a mobile bump on the bottom of the brain.
Cheers,
Diane

[nari]

Bernard, Diane

Diane, you put it more elegantly than I did, but I think the muscles are simply doing what they are told. So are the nerves and vascular stuff- the idea that the entire body is a blimp at the end of the brain gets more appealing as time goes by. It has a logic to it - but, Bernard, it can be a fuzzy logic sometimes if one thinks too hard and too long about the engine driver and the carriages it tows along behind!


Nari

[bernard]

the brain inadvertently tightens the muscles, which then can't let go, and they squeeze on things in the body creating pain.


Does brain failed there? I'm not sure.
Pretty link!

[nari]

Bernard, I suspect the brain tensions the muscle/s in order to protect a structure - a nearby joint or joint segment.
I think it is a direct action - but this is not certain, of course.

Diane, I agree that only the brain can fix the brain, in a broad sense, and we should be able to reprogram so that it does its job more effectively and efficiently. I suspect this is what Servaas is doing - reprogramming.

The remeining problem is the fragmented 'disc drive' with gaps and spaces ineffectively spread out and taking up too much space.
Bernard - you have defragged HDDs? is this a reasonable analogy and we should try to defrag the brain with our words, actions and numerous skills?

Or have I wandered into Middle Earth??


Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

It is well known that muscles are the active protective ligaments around joints. It is well known, too, that when a muscle fails or is tired a sprain could intervene. It is perfectly sensed that the original program failed elsewhere in fact of chronic pain.
But if muscle tension is applied for a long time, brain trends to forget this tension by accommodation and in this case, muscle is a lock forgotten by brain?

Brain needs always new inputs or lose them!

[bernard]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=370738

Pain. 1979 Feb;6(1):47-55. Related Articles, Links


Treatment of phantom limb pain with muscular relaxation training to disrupt the pain--anxiety--tension cycle.

Sherman RA, Gall N, Gormly J.

Sixteen phantom limb pain patients were treated with a combination of (1) progressive muscle relaxation exercise, (2) feedback of stump and forehead muscle tension, and (3) reassurance about normal phantom sensations and the relationship between anxiety and pain. Fourteen of the patients had chronic pain (average of 12 years) and two were recent amputees (5- and 1-week). At the end of treatment, 8 of the chronic patients showed virtually complete relief from pain, 4 showed significant decreases to a point at which they no longer desired treatment and 2 showed no significant change. Both recent amputees showed complete relief from pain. These changes have been sustained for follow-up period of 6 months to 3 years. The 2 unsuccessful patients did not learn to relax and had strong psychological needs for their pain.

PMID: 370738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1979, an old "millesime" forgotten in an ocean of studies? :?

[nari]

Bernard, I could be bit of a camel (ie stubborn) and say that the education and awareness section of the trial probably worked the best???


Nari

[pablo]

I really liked the bit where they say "The 2 unsuccessful patients did not learn to relax and had strong psychological needs for their pain". I don't know what that means :?, but I hope we have gone a long way since then in that regard.

[ian s]

Pablo,

I agree with you in a way but practically it is difficult to argue with Professor Wall and his analogy that pain is a need state not dissimilar to hungar or many other things in life.......
Many people communicate lifes problems through the language of pain , many people have entrenched pain behaviour,many people have psych social reinforcers ranging from warped family dynamics to economic and litigous factors ........I do believe that neuromatrix and physiological theories are important but much to the time little empahsis is placed on the social and environmental factors that pain is 'lived' in ?
Its not a case of blame the patient but understand the dynamics of the situation?