Atomic Pinballs

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

I begin a thread about basic knowledge about ions and particles motion:
(ions are moved in action potential, and are exchanged between cells).

1/ negative loves positive.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic.swf

the attractive force augments as the distance decreases (there is an acceleration).

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

I begin a thread about basic knowledge about ions and particles motion:
(ions are moved in action potential, and are exchanged between cells).

2/ negativists can't stay together.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic1.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic1.swf

the repulsive force decreases as the distance increases (there is an deceleration).

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

I begin a thread about basic knowledge about ions and particles motion:
(ions are moved in action potential, and are exchanged between cells).

3/ Optimistics can't stay together, too.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic2.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic2.swf

the repulsive force decreases as the distance increases (there is an deceleration).

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,


4/ little things move more than big ones.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic3.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic3.swf

the attractive force increases as the distance decreases (there is an aceceleration) but speed depends of the charge and its shape.
A large charge molecule moves more slowly than a tiny one. A more charged particle attracts/repulses more than a less charged one.

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,


5/ Immobile but active.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic4.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic4.swf

the attractive force increases as the distance decreases (there is an aceceleration) but speed depends of the charge and its shape.
A large charge fixed molecule doesn't move but its strength remains. A more charged particle attracts/repulses more than a less charged one.

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,


6/ hidden forces exist.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic5.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic5.swf

the attractive force increases as the distance decreases (there is an aceceleration) but speed depends of the charge and its shape.
A large charge fixed molecule doesn't move but its strength remains. A more charged particle attracts/repulses more than a less charged one.
The attraction is effective even if a barrier is put between the charges.

End of basic movements.
Now it will be more interesting?

[bernard]

SomaSimplers,

The last "figure" is existing in our body.
Where do we met it?
Some positive charges separated from fixed negative ones, by a thin layer? :rolleyes:

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

7/ positive ions want to come in.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic6.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic6.swf

Diane (and others)

This one is the first step of three that are important (vital).
You may love them since I figured an axon cut-away (very simplified).

The core is negative and we know that embedded negative ions are quite immobile. positive charges/ions are seeing the negative one though the layer/membrane and thus see the membrane as negative.
Positive charges/ions want to go inside the axon and the force that drives this urges is one of the most powerfull ones.

This first step is a beginning of an automatic flow.

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

8/ positive ions want, now, to come out.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic7.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic7.swf

This one is the second step of three that are important (vital).
Once ions cross the barrier via ions channels, things change drammatically. When the internal side becomes positive and positive charges want to go outside because the repulsive forces.

This second step is a spike of an action potential.

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

9/ And the cycle continues.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic8.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic8.swf

This one is the third step of three that are important (vital).
This passive step (in fact the only active) is under the dominance of ATP and Na/K pumps.

This third step is the recovery phase of an action potential (return to resting potential).

[bernard]

Hmmm,

I forgot to bring a scientific explanation of this behaviour:
It is the Gauss' Law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gaulaw.html). This law is an extension of the Coulomb's law (http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/%7Ecfadd/1160/Ch17/Coulomb.html)

It is extraordinary that none of the actual theories, about action potential, never tell us a word about them! ;)

[bernard]

The electric force between charges (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elecur.html#c2) may be calculated using Coulomb's law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html#c1). Normal household circuits (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehldcn.html#c1) in the U.S. operate on an AC voltage (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elevol.html#c1) of about V =120 volts. Connected to such a ciruit, the electric power (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elepow.html#c1) relationship P = IV tells us that to use power at the rate of P = 120 watts on a 120 volt circuit would require an electric current (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elecur.html#c1) of I = 1 ampere. One ampere of current transports one Coulomb of charge per second through the conductor. So one Coulomb of charge represents the charge transported through a 120 watt lightbulb in one second.

If two one-second collections of 1 Coulomb each were concentrated at points one meter apart, the force between them could be calculated from Coulomb's Law (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html#c1). For this particular case, that calculation becomes

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/imgele/coulaw2.gif
If two such charges could indeed be concentrated at two points a meter apart, they would move away from each other under the influence of this enormous force, even if they had to rip themselves out of solid steel to do so!

If such enormous forces would result from our hypothetical charge arrangement, then why don't we see more dramatic displays of electrical force? The general answer is that at a given point in a wire, there is never very much departure from electrical neutrality. Nature never collects a Coulomb of charge at one point. It might be instructive to examine the amount of charge in a sphere of copper (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pertab/cu.html#c1) of volume one cubic centimeter. Copper has one valence electron outside of closed shells in its atom, and that electron is fairly free to move about in solid copper material (that's what makes copper a good electrical conductor (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/conins.html#c1)). The density of metallic copper is about 9 grams/cm3 and one mole of copper is 63.5 grams so the cubic centimeter of copper contains about 1/7th of a mole (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/idegas.html#c4) or about 8.5 x 1022 copper atoms. With one mobile electron per atom, and with the electron charge of 1.6 x 10-19 Coulombs, this means there are about 13,600 Coulombs of potentially mobile charge in one cm3 of copper. Suppose we remove enough of the electrons from two spheres of copper so that there is enough net positive charge on them to suspend one of them over the other. What fraction of the electron charge must we remove? The force to lift one of the spheres of copper would be its weight (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mass.html#wgt), 0.088 Newtons. Assuming that the net charge resides at the points of the spheres most distant from each other because of the charge repulsion, we can set the force of repulsion equal to the weight of a sphere. The radius of a one cm3 sphere is 0.62 cm, so we will treat the force as that between two point charges 2.48 cm apart (i.e., twice the sphere diameter apart). Using Coulomb's law, this requires a charge of 7.8 x 10-8 Coulombs. Compared to the total mobile charge of 13,600 Coulombs, this amounts to removing just one valence electron out of every 5.7 trillion (5.7 x 1012) from each copper sphere. The final result is that the removal of just one out of roughly six trillion of the free electrons from each copper sphere would cause enough electric repulsion on the top sphere to lift it, overcoming the gravitational pull of the entire Earth!

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/imgele/copperball.gif

Nature uses the best tool she has, atoms. Little thing but such forces!

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

10/ A constant firing neuron.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic9.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic9.swf

It is only the vertical motion that occurs in an axon. I will explain why and how this motion is then sent along the axon.

Diane,

Hope you like this flowing?

[Diane]

Nice animation Bernard, it reminds me of a heart beat. Perhaps it IS a heart beat, sort of. It makes sense to me that once nature has worked out a way to move things (any sort of thing) along a tube/into and out of a tube, it would stick with what works.

The heart arises from brain very early on. It operates somewhat independently of the brain with its nodes, etc. The vasculature depends a huge amount on local nervous system control to tell it how wide it needs to be. Maybe the vascular system and the nervous system are twins that were never really separated at birth, and in the brain the only thing holding them apart is glia, in the body the only thing holding them apart is schwann.

Mabe their movements stimulate each other (the vascular movement stimulates through mechano reception) and that's what keeps the neuromatrix going. Maybe that's why there are free nerve endings everywhere.. the brain needs to feel the heart. The brain and the heart need to feel each other.

Just a little theory to get me going this morning,

[bernard]

Diane,

Maybe I pushed you in this way of thinking. It was my first thought when I saw the animation. But you may consider that I magnified enormously the ions/charges while I reduced in the same way the axon. I cheated to increase the tiny movement.

The real size of the scene is quite different since ions will be like peas on a large swiss ball and the membrane will like the rubber envelope of the ball.
A very little movement but so vital as you said. Without it, no communication neitheir brain.

Nature use little means that provide great forces.

Do not forget that it is a local response seen on few angstroms, (is one ten-billionth (1/10000000000) of a meter.) and ions are 3/5 angstroms wide.

Do not forget the basic motion of charges, it is where is situated the elegance of Nature's solution. (far from our electrical one...)

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

11/ A constant firing neuron (more realistic).

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic10.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic10.swf

It is only the vertical motion that occurs in an axon. I will explain why and how this motion is then sent along the axon.

Diane,

Hope you like this double flow? It is a heartbeat for sure.:D I think that you'll appreciate how this pump works?

[Diane]

Nice!
Diane

[bernard]

Nice, isn't it?

I have deep faith that the principle of the universe will be beautiful and simple.

I share this point of view with Albert. Nature solves every problem elegantly, smoothly without break of any kind. Curves at every piece of It.

My first attempt had a break and does not show the elegance of neuron.
The second one is exactly of the same duration but I show then, the two ionic engines working hand in hand. Such a difference. We begin to see the atomic action of incoming (red) ions of sodium and it creates an automatic urge for the potassium (blue) ones to flow out, pushed by the magnificence of atomic repulsion.

Nature uses an atomic ballet which is able to transport effortlessly our thoughts.

more to come for eyes and neurons...

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

12/ A constant firing neuron (more realistic).

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic11.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic11.swf

It is the same as the previous one but I added the voltage change on the left. It becomes clear that voltage is linked to ions and understandable that refractory periods are mandatory.

(Do not forget that actual theory does not clearly explain refractory periods)

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

13/ A constant firing neuron (longitudinally).

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic12.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic12.swf

Here is the the bi-solitonic waves of action potential.

[bernard]

Here is a quicker version.
http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic13.swf

[Diane]

Wow! That is gorgeous!

[bernard]

Diane,

It is a simplified version but I planned to add the opening/closing of the ions channels.

the last version is static since it does not show why the action potential is going on a direction.

If you understood the basics attraction/repulsion, you may see?

[bernard]

Hi Somasimplers,

14/ A constant firing neuron (longitudinally).

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic14.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic14.swf

Here is the three-solitonic waves of action potential.

There is a slight modification with previous versions but it is the most important one.

[bernard]

Well,

But where are my ions channels?
We need to magnify the problem to see the underlying sub-solitons that created this dynamic one.

[nari]

Ahh Bernard, the graphics look just great, but the physics is way over my head.
How on earth do you do these dynamic graphics? (Rhetorical question, I am not sure I want to know because that will be beyond me, too!)

Nari

[bernard]

Nari,

It is just simple. I use a timeline and symbols (little pictures = a ion...)
Within this timeline I put some orders (move right/up...) and the software does the job/film.
The previous animation contains 40 animated symbols. It is a bit boring to program but I love the results since the software shows exactly what Nature thought.

[Diane]

Well, it is a lovely graphic.. does the job of depicting the movement part of physiology. Makes it come alive a bit. I can imagine the receptors opening then closing, opening then closing. Are these the same receptors that become sensitized to adrenalin?

[bernard]

I can imagine the receptors opening then closing, opening then closing.

Next to come on SomaSimple => God does not play dice! (http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1109)

[bernard]

Well, it is a lovely graphic.. does the job of depicting the movement part of physiology.

Diane,

I think/imagine the movements but they are based on physics laws. I begin to be satisfied when the movement is smooth enough without any break. I magnify some very little movements because Nature uses little means, in contrary you'll see nothing. I use a human scale for these motions.

[Diane]

I get it Bernard.
Even cellular activity is very busy. It's still motor behavior, even though it is below a focal length that we can see with our naked eyes.

[bernard]

In this case, ions/atoms are the key of life.
BTW, is it possible to have an other way to move things without atomic forces? Just no. :thumbs_up

[Diane]

And likely there could be no life, no movement atomically within life if not for water inside the cells, and the inherent motion of it. (Brownian motion).

I'm not thinking nerve cells so much here, just cells in general.

[bernard]

Here is some important views:
The newtown pendulum is well known but uses inert balls.
But this pendulum has a limit! The motion ends quickly!
newton's pendulum (http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/mechanics/newtons_pendulum/newtons_pendulum.html)

http://www.myphysicslab.com/pendulum1.html
The magnetic one shows that attraction repulsion complicates the motion. The motion has a a long lasting but it works randomly.
Magnetic pendulum (http://bednorzmuller87.phys.cmu.edu/demonstrations/oscillationsandwaves/drivenoscillations/demo226.html)

Nature, in axons, use a magnetic ordered pendulum. ( I will explain it later).

You may see the movies on these sites before.

[bernard]

15/ ideal transmission doesn't exist on Earth.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic17.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic17.swf

If we consider a non charged collision because there is no friction and no deceleration, the force is totally transmitted.

But it doesn't exist such circumstances on Earth.

[bernard]

16/ Normal transmission is stopped.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic18.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic18.swf

Here is the common situation. It works but lasts quickly!
It is a first reason why Nature used another mean than inert balls (but ions).

[bernard]

17/ Perfect alignment is impossible.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic19.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic19.swf

Here is amore common situation. It works but lasts quickly!
It is impossible that the continuity may be enabled on such distance. There is gaps between some balls and thus message transmission will always fail. (Do not forget that an axon contains milions and millions of ions.)

Nature used an active and elegant ionic mechanism.

[bernard]

18/ Inert balls are inefficient.

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic20.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic20.swf

The same as previous that shows on the short distance the problem encountered with inert balls.

[bernard]

19/ Another good reason for inefficiency...

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic21.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic21.swf

Newton called it : GRAVITATION. :D

[bernard]

20/ Ions ignore Newton...

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic22.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic22.swf

If we put some ions and create an imbalance (important) between internal and external side of a vat/cell/axon... thus we get a re-arrangement of ions that counter-balance the gravitation effect.

It tightens the membrane!!! It is why the plants have a greater imbalance of ions and are tighter than us.

[bernard]

21/ Newton's Pendulum revisited...

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic23.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic23.swf

If we try to make a netwon's pendulum with charged balls, equilibrilium is not the same. And, it is not sure that it will work better than the original? :rolleyes:

But Nature uses it and it works!!!

[bernard]

22/ Where Nature seems to fail...

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic24.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/atomic24.swf

As I said it, such pendulum doesn't work very well since charges resist and oppose their forces to the motion. Weird, but as I told us, Natures made it!

[bernard]

Here is three ions attracted by a single opposite one:
http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/three_forces.swf

http://www.somasimple.com/flash_anims/three_forces.swf